[Mike_Myers_N8]

I don't disagree with you, but let's take the thing you said that summarizes this nicely:

"But what happens when you are presented with 5 different phones that all have the same functionality, the same features, and varying ....... app environments? "

If we get that far, and everything is equal, then you're right - all that's left is brand name and looks.

Step back though. Let's say we *really* want to sell as many of this phone as possible. The prospective customer holds it in his hand, and there are a choice of eight things he can do (perhaps a few more that I'm not yet aware of).

With Symbian Anna (who knows about Belle yet) on my own first home screen I have 28 things I can do.

Count how many choices there are on an iphone or one of the Android phones.

Long before I ever get to the looks of the new design, I'd be turned off by the lack of tools/controls, and even if I didn't know what was what, any decent salesman could sway me towards the phone with so much "more".

More so than fixing up the supposed bad looks, Nokia needs to provide a way to bypass the standard Windows boxes, and provide a lot more meaningful information. (Look at what SPB Mobile Shell can do, and they did it years ago on a Windows phone).

If we get by all that, it comes down to what we think of the looks of this new Lumina 700. I think you missed my point about this. Personally, I *like* the way this phone looks. The "looks" of this device would attract me to it, not turn me away. I fully understand that others may feel differently - it's all personal choice. It's like clothes, where everyone dresses differently. To me, this 700 has a clean, un-cluttered look, especially in black (with the black back cover).

The phone stores are filled up with phones that I think of as "ugly". They may or may not be - it's all up to the user. This new 700 looks better than most of them, as I see it, and far from a turn-off, I see it as a benefit.

Two photos to compare:

http://www.allaboutsymbian.com/images/devices/nokia700/700-inhand.jpg

http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/56288000/jpg/_56288887_lumia710.jpg

[fraggeskeh]

I totally understand your viewpoint - I prided my N8 on being a "swiss-army-knife" of sorts, I could do literally almost anything I needed or wanted to wherever I was. But you're forgetting that due to the current phone market (and more specifically, the marketing used by companies such as Apple), many (not all) smartphone consumers aren't looking for 28 features on their homepage. They want easily decipherable information and snappy responses, wrapped up in a shiny package. Symbian has never classically delivered a hugely snappy response on a smartphone (before MeeGo, to my knowledge), but it has always been easy to navigate and the packages have been generally shiny. The Lumia 700 reminds me way too much of the N97 to ever be "shiny" in my eyes.

Also, you're talking about Symbian Anna here, but the Lumia 700 runs WP7.5, so I'm not sure what your point is about the phones not being initially equal - if the Lumia 700 runs W7 and the HTC Sensation runs Android, their capabilities are virtually identical (regardless of future software customization). The difference is that the Sensation is sleek, basic and pretty, and the Lumia looks like it was designed by a college graduate with a short timeframe and limited resources.

I'd like to point out that if a good salesman could sway you to the phone with "more" then there are no good salesmen in the world. I've never once been presented a Nokia as "the" phone to get. Ever. I'm also good friends with four different phone salesmen for different carriers, and they all use and evangelize Android. So either Nokia admits that they need to do something more than just offer the most features on the homescreen (which they already have, by converting to the WP platform) or they fall further behind in the smartphone market. Its like they've been making the same rhetorical statement over and over again with each phone release, as if it'll numb the pain - "forget what consumers have said they want in a UI, our designers know better. they'll come around". The mantra that competing = fine is dead wrong. Nobody wants something that is just OK (not when you're spending $400-$800 on a phone), they want something that stands out and extends themselves as a person. The Lumia 700 for me (and apparently everyone except the Nokia forums) just doesn't do that, and the only reason that I keep coming back to is the physical design.

[Mike_Myers_N8]

Yep, I know what you mean. I guess that's why some people buy fancy cars, and I drive a Land Rover.

My point in posting this here - simple. The operating system may be Windows, but I believe someone could write a user interface that looked very different, just as SPB completely revised the silly interface on the Samsung Omnia years ago. All those silly boxes are someone's idea of how to use the phone; maybe someone else (as SPB did) will fix things once again.

I agree with your thoughts on "the market", and what people seem to want, but as I see it, it's all "follow the leader", with 99.9% of the people not having any real idea of what's going on, or why. To them, the phone is a fashion statement.

Anyway, I'll drop out of this. I'm just repeating myself. I don't dislike the new phones, and the absolute LAST thing on my mind is "fashion". I just want "utilitarian", and also that "Form follows function". That does NOT mean that function suffers simply to make for a better form.

[93tid]

1. It's the Lumia 710, not the LumiNa 700

2. The 710 is less than 2/3 of the price of the 800 (or the SGS2 or the HTC Sensation) - why would you consider them as equal ? Clearly the price is an indicator not just of an uglier (in your opinion) design, but also more restricted functionality ?

[mmeghalsi]

SO DESAPOITING
I bought the nokia lumia 800 and the battery life was rubbish with a very little use... couple of phone calls news on the net for 10min 2 emails 2 text and that was it 10% left on the battery...
I am not using bluethoot or wifi... nothing basic use...
I called orange and they collected the phone and gave me a new one......guess what....same problem!
+ WP 8 comming soon and you will be stock with WP 7.5
+ Phone getting hot for no reason
What a shame a beautiful phone that you cannot use more than few hours... I am going to get the samsung s2 instead and you should do the same guys, the lumia is not going to last!

[kolembo]

So...with a little time gone by, now we can see.

The 800 is a good looking phone with great appeal but the wrong price.

At the right price, its short comings would have been over-looked and the market penetration, substantial even if initially at a loss.

I would have liked to see Nokia write this loss into their strategy, gotten themselves out there and then begin to turn it around on their second windows offerings.

As it is, this is the way they're having to go now but they've not been able to capitalize on the novelty experience.

It is a symptom of management I'd tracked for a while....the resistance to playing out of the box.

The approach should have and should continue to be the emphasis on The Fantastic New Nokia carrying New Windows rather than Windows now showing on Nokia.

They can still do it if they slash the prices of the 800 substantially - to the 200 Euro mark - and offer the 700 at slightly under as an alternative prefference RATHER than alternative price.

It was alittle arrogant to offer the 800 as a new experience at that price before before eating humble pie and re-introducing itself to its customers - and a very loyal bunch they have been - without them having to first feel like they're begging for it, and then feel as though they've been cheated.

I can't see why the loss vs. market penetration argument could not have been made at the very beginning.

It can still happen, like I said, but now, Nokia-with-windows already has a history.

Which is ok because there's still a couple of years ahead in which to take on handsets (Ericsson/HTC/motor etc) and OS (android/i-stuff).

What's more difficult is the specific LUMUSH 800 history now, and whether ppl will warm to it at a given price.

Nokia can hire me anytime - but I hear it's having to let ppl go.

Anyway, that's my two cents.

I wish they'd give it a go and focus on getting these handsets into the hands of the market BEFORE behaving as though Windows is rescuing them.

Really, they are rescuing Windows is the way the approach needs to read with Nokia owners.

What do you all think? The 800 at 200?

Let me know.

[donofworld]

agreed....Lumia800 preorders have just started in India and it is priced at 30,000rs that is 2000rs more than just recently launched SGS II so pretty high price here too and also not to forget that Lumia800 is NOT a flagship wp7 device by Nokia as from Nokia's current model number terminology Lumia 9XX will be a flagship model as 9XX>800

[OklahomaBoots]

"...people are just waiting...." Yes, they really are! I remember when Nokia was synonomous with not only craftsmanship....but Ssssstyle! It's like Nokia has an identity crisis, and the only way-out is to copy the Koreans & Chinese (with their BlackBrickSlabPhones).

[Since_6110]

the guy is a troll.  you guys are biting way too hard.

[OklahomaBoots]

Yesterday, while shopping at Walmart..I decided to go by the their Phone Center and ask about the Lumina 710.

Yep! they had a few, and agreed to let me handle one.

Whoa!  I now understand some of the questions regarding (it's) looks. My Nuron looks better. This 710 looked & felt like something I would purchase at ToysAreUs.

Wouldn't it have been nice to save all the chrome& glass (from the Astound) for the WP7 AND 8 ?

Oh well....I guess I'll just wait.