[ArminG]

I did not try a new SIM. Depending on the outcome of my 'repair' I may try that. Thanks for the tip!

Some comments though

1) My Vodafone SIM has the same issues on T Mobile USA.

2) That same Vodafone SIM when roaming on AT&T (*) does not have these issues.

3) I would still consider it a bug in Anna as well, as non-Anna works fine with those SIMs.

So even though I would in theory be willing to try a new SIM, it would be nice if Nokia could

A) confirm, and

B) explain in rough laman terms why the SIM matters.

I work in the mobile phone industry myself at the lower BSP levels of phones and have seen the most exotic SIM issues you can think off, but this one would be unique. I'm not stating there is no link, but how can a SIM cause only one frequency to either crash or not? SIM issues can expose itself in a wide range of areas from e.g. voicemail to general registration issues, but are usually frequency-agnostic.

So if some people fixed issues with replacing their SIM card, my initial money would be that these were different issues than I'm/we're seeing. (Now, don't get me wrong, I would love to be wrong as getting a new SIM card is easy.)

Oh and BTW, I got my hands on a second E7. This one is US unlocked and pre-Anna with 14.002  Works flawlessly with this same T Mobile USA SIM. :-)  I like the smaller The C6-01 better, but at least the E7 has 3G.

--------- 

*) and presumably in Australia en Europe would still work as well. I travel a lot, which is why I love - no actually need - the Nokia penta-bands. Only this year I've already used my N8 on all 5 bands: the same Vodafone SIM worked in US (both TMo and ATT), South-Korea, Europe and Australia on multiple operators. All this was before upgrading to Anna.

After Anna, at least AT&T still works. In a few weeks I can try Europe again to get another data-point, but I dare to bet it will work fine on those European frequencies.



And to complete the data: the C6-01 also has seen Australia (all 3 big operators) and T Mobile USA before Anna with this same SIM.

Hence, I don't buy the SIM-card story meaning if replacing the SIM works it likely is either a different issue, or only works around the Anna bug, and the issue is not actually with the SIM.)

[andhalamadola]

Working in the mobile industry, I have access to SIM testing tools, etc, and the SIM does not seem to play any part in the restarts of the phone. What I did observe was, I was able to time the restarts of the phone to every 10 minutes.The phone simlply does a cold restart for no reason whatsoever. This does not happen if I have a AT&T sim in the phone, or, if I force the 2G mode with TMobile on the phone.

This does not happen on the C6-01 which has pre-Anna version installed. I am following this up with Nokia, and have also told them that there are others who are having the same problem (pointed them to this discussion forum). They are now dispatching a new N8 with pre-Anna firmware to be used, and have advised to not to upgrade to Anna until Nokia have thoroughly tested the sh_t out of this.

[93tid]

I have no scientific explanation except empirical evidence from close to a dozen users so far on different S^3 handsets running Anna which had the very same problem resolved with a 100% success rate by getting a replacement new SIM card from T-Mobile USA.

If it's not an issue to get a replacement, wouldn't it be easier to just do it and try.

[ArminG]

Hi 93tid, do you have any links to those discussions? It would be great to see if they have indeed the same issues as we have.

( Note that even then it is still an Anna issue, as the same SIM works fine without Anna. It is then just that the new SIM doesn't expose the Anna-bug. )

In addition: The scary thing is that Nokia didn't find this themselves. It is not as if it is an exotic corner-case.

I fear the massive reorganisations due to the transition to WP7 is at least part of the cause.

Also in addition, even if Nokia didn't you can be very sure T Mobile USA would have. Operator testing is very tough, especially in the USA. Based on my experience the USA and Australian operators are the most strict (hence also the Aussie delay in Anna), so I doubt this would have slipped by T Mobile.

So the conclusion I draw from that is that the C7 Astound is not planned to be updated to Anna, and for that reason no testing is performed by T Mobile USA.

That also makes it more understandable that Nokia themselves didn't find it, as unlocked Symbian phones also have officially be retracted from the US market. So if the Astound isn't getting an upgrade, then no more new Symbian phones are currently sold through Nokia or planned for the US at all. Hence priority for the 1700MHz band would logically be lower than for the rest of the world where Symbian has an important transition role.

Thinking about changes: the planned/proposed buyout of T Mobile USA by AT&T, also doesn't help either. AT&T stated they would discontinue this 1700 band, and use it for its LTE role-out instead.
Now this merger is under political and legal scrutiny, but if this goes through, then this whole band isn't used at all anymore anywhere in the world. At that moment, this whole Anna issue would go away by itself :-)

[andhalamadola]

Agreed, i dont think its a SIM issue, as the the same SIM works flawlessly in other AWS phones. It has got to be the Anna version that has the bug.

[93tid]

---

ArminG wrote:
Hi 93tid, do you have any links to those discussions? It would be great to see if they have indeed the same issues as we have.

---

Here's one I found so far, I'll do a more detailed search later:

/t5/Nseries-and-Symbian-Smartphones/N8-auto-restart-after-updating-Anna/m-p/1207167#M279711

I've also seen this reported on other sites, will try to dig them up, it's a problem when I read through so much stuff on a daily basis.

[ArminG]

Thank you!

Don't get me wrong, as I really apprieciate this, as I want to get to the bottom of this, but ...

... as I suspected these are different issues. Phone reboots due to SIM issues are very common issues. Often the read/write fails and/or some setting cannot be initialised. Or worse the SIM reports a write was successfull, but in reality it was not. Etc. I see these issues almost weekly in my work.

Also that thread seems to report a whole range of issues, with the only common thing the reboots.
A persistent 3G connection seems e.g. one issue (which is not possible on EDGE, hence while turning 3G off helps) and the **bleep** Nokia search (my wife's astound was crashing as well with that search on) seems another issue. The search-deamon starts at boot, and wants to make data connections all the time if you are not carefull. :-)

To be clear: in this threads issue, it is not the phone that reboots, but the cellular firmware. The phone itself stays fine, and I can e.g. use WiFi, read mail, play video, etc. All is fine, except the cellular stack which crashes. The cellular firmware is at least partially running on a different CPU than the OS.

Also some people get confused by the name T Mobile. Some these issues were e.g. with Dutch devices and other than a shared name, the Dutch T Mobile has nothing to do with T Mobile USA. They are both owned by DTAG and can therefore use its branding name, but that's about it.

The issue is that the European T Mobile use the same frequencies as all other operators there. There is no hard frequency divide there between operators like in the US. So if a frequency would be failing it will fail on multiple operators.
In the US, T Mobile uses a unique frequency. Unique for the US and unique for the rest of the world. It is that band that seems to be broken if you upgrade to Anna.

Although at least one user reported his device is fine, so it could have another factor ...

I tried BTW the same 'broken' T Mobile SIM's in some Windows Phone devices and also no reboots. I can also likely get my hands on a Norway SIM that roams on T Mobile USA, so if I find some time, I may try that to get extra data points.

[andhalamadola]

+1 to your post, ArminG. I also tried the 'broken' SIM in 6 other phones, and no problems at all. The problem does lie solely with the compatibility of Anna with the AWS band (Band IV). Now there are some users who are not facing this problem, could be a combination of hardware+firmware too. I have (tried to) escalate(d) this matter within Nokia, and they are now dispatching a N8 with S^3 to use until they identify the problem.

[andhalamadola]

Update: Just received my N8 from Nokia with Symbian^3 installed, and the same SIM card is working just flawlessly. What this means is, there is something in the Anna firmware, that is, well, broken. Nokia, you need to fix this asap!

[93tid]

If it's that easy to get a new SIM from T-Mobile US why don't you just humour me and get one, then you will have collected even more data points.

[slvr32]

I found this thread while I was searching for Nokia 700 & Symbian Belle issues with T-Mobile USA.

My experience so far, with a 'just unboxed' Nokia 700, running Symbian Belle, using T-Mobile USA is that the data connection will work briefly after a reboot, if you open a web browser, check email, etc... not too long after the phone boots.

But... shortly after, if you leave the data connection idle for a short time, it appears to be foobar'd until you reboot the phone again.

I've used the same T-Mobile USA SIM in an N900, without any issues with the T-Mobile USA data connection.

I've also tried some of the more common tips to try to resolve this... turn off power saving, toggle between normal and offline modes, etc..,. etc... and the Nokia 700 data connection is just completely unreliable with T-Mobile USA.

After humoring the data connection troubles with the Nokia 700 for a few hours this morning, I really think I might just need to box up the Nokia 700, and add it to the list of Symbian phones I've given a shot in the past year (had an N8, had an E7), but  that just keep leading to a pile of pain and suffering in the USA.

[andhalamadola]

Sad. Really sad, Nokia. It seems you have bungled the AWS band in your Anna and Belle upgrades.

Slvr2, does the phone stay stable if you force the phone on the 'GSM' mode in Network Settings? Also, have you tried swapping the SIM card, as many users have suggested here?

[slvr32]

---

andhalamadola wrote:
Sad. Really sad, Nokia. It seems you have bungled the AWS band in your Anna and Belle upgrades.

Slvr2, does the phone stay stable if you force the phone on the 'GSM' mode in Network Settings? Also, have you tried swapping the SIM card, as many users have suggested here?

---

The data connection does seem to be stable if I force GSM mode.

And no, I haven't tried swapping the SIM card.

I got rid of my N8 and E7 right before the Anna update, so I can't really comment on Anna 3G performance with T-Mobile USA.

Still, I wasn't having any problems (pre-Anna) with the same SIM card and T-Mobile USA data connection with the N8 or E7... or my N900... or an N950. On the other hand, WPA2 wifi connections were extremely unreliable, which seems to be a common complaint.

Just based on my own sample set with multiple phones and the same SIM card, it's really hard for me not to deduct that the consistently ureliable piece really is Nokia + Symbian^3 + USA.

[slvr32]

One more data point...

http://my.opera.com/community/forums/topic.dml?id=947142

(Symbian^3 connectivity issues after idle on T-Mobile USA)

I really hope that the Nokia staff watching this forum flag this as a critical issue, and the appropriate developers get this fixed in a future update, but I can't afford to waste more time, money, and effort on the Nokia/Symbian/USA saga/disaster.

The issues with WPA2 and Symbian^3 were already bordering on infuriating (having to manually reconnect to WPA2 networks after a disconnect, entering shared secret from scratch, etc... every time a connection was lost), but 3G was at least usable before the Anna and Belle updates.

Please realize that I've owned a handful of Nokia phones (and an internet tablet) just in the past few years... N810, N900, N950, N8, E7, 700, where everything but the N950 have been significant out-of-pocket expenses, averaging ~ $350 - $550 per phone at the time of purchase, and the Symbian phones have continued to be broken/crippled to the point that I largely put these phones in a drawer, because they were truly too unusable/ureliable to carry as 'smartphones', and I waited for updates to fix the glaring issues, with the hope that I could eventually not regret these purchases as a legitimate expense/investment, since I've also been doing Qt/C++ development in my free time.

I've just run out of anything nice to say about Nokia, and it's really difficult to justify putting any time/effort into such an obvious, ongoing string of disasters

[andhalamadola]

Could this problem not be Nokia specific? Could there be restrictions placed by T-Mobile on their 1700MHz band itself? As per the link below:

http://shop.windmobile.ca/ProductCatalog/Handsets/HandsetDetails.aspx?id=Nokia+500%28WINDCA%29&color...

Wind mobile, which operates on the same AWS band in Toronto, Canada, offers the Nokia 500 on Symbian Anna. Assuming no hardware incompatibility, if Symbian Anna is working in Canada on the AWS band, this could actually mean that there might be a problem with TMobile itself.

[slvr32]

---

andhalamadola wrote:
Could this problem not be Nokia specific? Could there be restrictions placed by T-Mobile on their 1700MHz band itself? As per the link below:

http://shop.windmobile.ca/ProductCatalog/Handsets/HandsetDetails.aspx?id=Nokia+500%28WINDCA%29&color...

Wind mobile, which operates on the same AWS band in Toronto, Canada, offers the Nokia 500 on Symbian Anna. Assuming no hardware incompatibility, if Symbian Anna is working in Canada on the AWS band, this could actually mean that there might be a problem with TMobile itself.

---

Just to be clear, my N900 is my primary phone, and the T-Mobile USA data connection on it is absolutely rock-solid, I use it all day long, every day, in 'dual' network mode, i.e. automatically switching between GPRS/3G and GSM, without any issues whatsoever.

I've also never noticed any problems with the T-Mobile USA data connection on my N950, although I generally only use the N950 for occasional development and testing.

The N8 and E7 had perfectly reliable T-Mobile USA data connections before the Anna update, but as I said, I got rid of the N8 and E7 a while ago.

I really am trying to provide useful data points for comparison, but my experience has absolutely been that Symbian^3 is garbage, and it's impossible to depend on these phones for reliable data connections or even stable wifi connections. And one more FYI, I've only ever owned Nokia phones (8260, C3-01, 700, N8, E7, N900, N950), with the exception of a work-issued Motorola Razr v3xx, and only the Symbian^3 phones have had this sort of unreliable connectivity that has relegated them to kitchen drawer and/or paperweight status for months at a time.

[easyv]

Add me and my E7 to your list. I travel a lot and go to different markets. The thing I've noticed, at least lately, is it seems to happen in areas with marginal 3G signal most, and that on this trip, it is more likely to reboot in 3.5G signal areas. I've just tried the search fix, so we'll see if that has any impact.
Last night it was rebooting a lot, so I set it to GSM mode, and it hasnt rebooted on its own since. I've switched it back to dual mode, after the search fix. we'll see if that helps.

My sim is about 12-15 months old, btw. TMo USA charges $20 for a replacement, btw....

The other thing I noticed is that my Photo viewer is now scanning and "refreshing", scanning for updated photos when it never noticably did. I am suspecting file system corruption on the data drive, so I just my format it. Who knows, it might be contributing to it, right?

I also have the 2/2 update being detected as not installed, but I have installed it twice successfully for good measure. Deleted/uninstalled some of the new apps, so maybe thats why it thinks its not installed?

Anyway, that's my laundry list. Hope the upgrade to Belle is a better experince...

[ArminG]

That there are Anna phones that work doesn't surprise me. As I understood the Nokia 500 is shipped with Anna out-of-the-box, so not an upgrade like the N8/C6-01/E7. Also the Nokia 500 is a new device, like the X-series.

My suspicion is that there is an incompatibility between the modem software and Anna software itself. It could e.g. be that the Anna update doesn't update the modem firmware, but only the software that runs on the application CPU. Result newer devices which have a new firmware version work, but Anna fails to work with the older modem firmware.

Or the reverse could be possible: that it does update the modem firmware, but some hardware incompatibility kicks in. E.g. perhaps some revisions of an IC-component in the phone doesn't work with the newer firmware. That would also explain why al least one person stated he had no issues with Anna on T Mobile USA, as that person may have a newer hardware,

But who knows. As stated I work in the mobile industry myself and could come up with countless reasons. Nokia never makes any statements on upgrades, and this is no exception so we'll probably never know.

However, I did notice it seems Anna 25.001 as an update is no longer available for the US market!?

Becaude I'm still waiting for my C6-01 to return (*), I put my T Mobile USA SIM in the E7 US unlocked I mentioned earlier. That E7 runs 14.xxx software, but suddenly doesn't get the Anna update offered anymore!

That alone is weird, as it should get it, but in thsi case I know 100% sure it was offered before. I know 100% sure as I did an update check and updated all software - except obviously Anna. So the Anna update was still sitting there each tiem I came back there.

Yesterday I looked again, and I noticed it was gone! The dialer-update check states my software is up to date, and the SW update app shows only an empty list and also states there is no update.

Perhaps someone else with a non-Anna Symbian3 unlocked US model, could verify if it is just the/my E7 or indeed a generic pull of Anna ...

Or perhaps it is a US server-issue again ...

--

*) UPS's fault for delivering 3 days later than indicated so it didn't make it before the Thanks-Giving Holidays. Nokia USA so far has been helpfull. I'm blaming the mothership in Finland for this whole issue, not their USA department.

[ArminG]

Interesting enough my wife's Astound got here Anna update offered today! So I was wrong in my prediction here. My wife forbit me to upgrade considering the drama with my other 3 Symbian devices :-), but I'm pretty sure T Mobile USA tested this update.

This enforces my thoughs that the incompatibility perhaps only occurs on older devices

Also interesting is that the Astound did not get the 25.007 update, but only the 24.004

So since this would rule our server issues its seems Nokia is messing around with the Anna updates on some US platforms. Perhaps they foudn out the root cause!?

[slvr32]

---

ArminG wrote:
Interesting enough my wife's Astound got here Anna update offered today! So I was wrong in my prediction here. My wife forbit me to upgrade considering the drama with my other 3 Symbian devices :-), but I'm pretty sure T Mobile USA tested this update.

This enforces my thoughs that the incompatibility perhaps only occurs on older devices

Also interesting is that the Astound did not get the 25.007 update, but only the 24.004

So since this would rule our server issues its seems Nokia is messing around with the Anna updates on some US platforms. Perhaps they foudn out the root cause!?

---

andhalmadola commented on a Nokia 500, but I'd like to repeat that the most recent phone I've seen with 3G issues on T-Mobile USA in my first post in this thread is a Nokia 700, pre-loaded with Symbian Belle, unlocked, no contract, no carrier, etc... purchased from Amazon just a couple of weeks ago, on November 10. Point being, the Nokia 700 isn't an 'older device'.